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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri no
apologies for returning to the Ukraine
after all it seems as we predicted last
week to have plunged us into the cold
bath of Cold War rhetoric with the
temperature reaching Cuba Missile Crisis
depths Beyond iron or even satar
countries which have themselves
slaughtered more than a million people
over the last few years years invading
and occupying country after country
thousands of miles off their Shores
denouncing Russian actions which haven't
cost a single life on their own doorstep
Beyond what's about ISM however the
mainstream media who are eager to find
signs of bias in others hardly gives
mention to the ultra nationalist
Neo-Nazi parties on the streets of
Ukraine and even in some Ministries in
the new us and EU backed interim
government indeed if you are only news
source was Western media you wouldn't
even know that there had been a leaked
audio of a phone call between Britain's
EU representative baroness Ashton and
the Estonian foreign minister in which
the latter suggests very clearly that it
was people acting for this very interim
government in Kiev who killed the
protesters and the police in maidan in a
false flag operation that the mainstream
media doesn't mention it is why Sputnik
exists
and we're orbiting the worldall to give
you the details missed by the mainstream
and let me make this clear what you get
from the Sputnik is our view of the
truth as we see it and no blowdried
autoq speak your weight machine should
ever persuade you otherwise helping us
make sense of the week's events on the
Eastern front will be regular RT talking
head Alexander mercuris But First gatri
with her red gloves and snow on her
boots took to the Streets of London to
take the temperature out there I don't
know enough about the situation in
Ukraine but I reckon if we had our Fleet
the British Fleet that was on somebody
else's Sovereign territory and it looked
like that country was in a state of flux
and possibly could bring in a a
government which was Pro some other
power or against our power block then we
might well be considering going in there
to protect our interest so it's all
about power politics and I'm not sure
there's a right entirely a right and
wrong nobody wants to see a sovereign
state actually invaded and that has
happened so it's wrong do you think it's
going to be a big war well uh no I don't
think so no no Russia is too clever for
that yeah I'm too strong but I'm for
Putin are you and why do you think what
do you think about the language then
about from Cameron and Obama about uh
economic sanctions and boycotting SOI
well what uh why don't anybody else put
sanction on UK and United States when
they would commit War crime in uh Iraq
well this is this is double a standard
isn't it I don't think anyone should be
saber rattling and least of all the
Russians so if you produce aggressive
behavior going to produce aggressive
behavior in the alternative so nobody
should be aggressives nobody should be
let to people to decide through
Democratic and peaceful
processes Alexander let's start with
what I think is the biggest story of the
week and many weeks uh for that matter
I've spent my whole life ridiculing
conspiracy theorists I almost never
believe them MH here we have on the face
of it evidence in this telepone call
between the Estonian Diplomat and the
head of the European Union's foreign uh
policy director baroness Ashton in which
it is quite calmly discussed that the
massacre of 22 police and more than 50
demonstrators on the maidan may very
well have been a carefully staged
provocation organized not by The
yanukovich Tyranny as John Kerry
describes it but by the very people now
in power in KF what's your take on that
well if anybody followed the situation
in KF carefully they would know that
there were some very dangerous people
there at right sector Mr Yarosh who is
their leader and these are very violent
very dangerous people entirely capable
of doing these things and they have a
fascistic Neo-Nazi in fact let's call it
Nazi ideology so it is entirely
predictable that they would behave in
this way the remarkable thing about that
telephone conversation is that these two
very senior officials of the European
Union an Estonian foreign minister and
the foreign affairs minister if you like
of the European commission calmly
discuss this question and then move on
to other topics well actually if you go
to YouTube and watch this very
conversation there's a Content warning
saying that this may be inappropriate
for some users certainly highly
inappropriate uh to be fair I thought
that baroness Ashton sounded shocked
ConEd surprised but she's done nothing
about it absolutely and this footage has
yet to appear on the British
state-owned BBC absolutely and it's been
barely reported apparently the United
States and the only comment the American
government can make is to complain about
the people people who have leaked it for
the weeks previously policemen had been
set on fire there had been beatings and
so on there was a lot of uh uh rough
stuff yes but a massacre there had not
been suddenly there was a massacre and
the dogs of war were Unleashed are you
really saying that these thuggish
fascistic paramilitaries have the
sophistication to carry out such an
operation because I'm wondering if it's
not someone uh with a a bit more uh
expertise and experience in this kind of
thing well who knows at this moment in
time we don't know enough about all of
this it's entirely possible if we look
for example at an analogous situation
which is Syria we see how
extraordinarily violent and dangerous
people have been used in Syria by some
of the same forces the same powers in
the world that are now taking such a
great interest in the Ukraine so it is
entirely possible that people who did
this sort of thing in Syria could do
this thing in the Ukraine as well I want
to just come back to this point you were
making we the real crisis in the Ukraine
is not in the Crimea it is in Kiev that
is where the epicenter of this is that
is where aou took place using
extraordinary violence lots of people
were killed up to now in the Crimea no
one has been killed at all the Crimean
Parliament has voted unanimously to join
Russia a referendum is being uh arranged
what happens though in eastern Ukraine
where 47% of the people are either
ethnic Russians or Russian speakers uh
and where uh the kind of political
forces on the streets in Kiev are not
particularly to their taste no they're
not and this is really I think the Slow
Burn fuse if you look at an awful lot of
the western commentary not not the
really loud rhetoric but the
undercurrent that goes beneath it is the
eastern Ukraine that they're really
frightened of because if that blows or
or or if the Russians intervene there
which they might they said they would do
if their people were actually threatened
then frankly the West faces an
extraordinary crisis and conceivably
humiliation as well well Simon Jenkins
the uh the veteran and rather right-wing
uh commentator was making the point in
the newspapers this week that the
principal weapon at the disposal of
pipsqueaks like William heg and uh David
Cameron would be to stop Russian
oligarchs coming to buy stuff
in uh I I I myself could live with that
I think I think I think I think Mr Putin
would be very pleased actually if you
actually look at what he was talking
about over the last couple of years it's
actually about relocating Russian wealth
back to Russia um if we're talking about
economic sanctions well there might be
some the chances are probably there will
be token but we'll have to see today
whatever happens they have to talk to
Russia Russia is too big it's too
important in this world not to talk to
so we will see an awful lot of noise the
crime I think is lost to the Ukraine I
think everybody knows that they don't
want to say it publicly but that's the
real situation and now the whole game if
you like is to try and hold what's left
of the Ukraine together and they realize
that they need the Russians help to do
that yes but the people they've
appointed I mean they've appointed two
oligarchs worth $1 billion between them
to be uh the governors of these two
great parts of the Eastern region and
they have put into the intelligence
Ministry the defense Ministry the Prime
ministere Minister Deputy Prime Minister
uh is a fascist and out fascist with
swastika on his sleeve uh that can't
possibly
play with Russia it wouldn't play in the
west if the West actually reported it if
if it were seen on our TV the Deputy
Prime Minister of the new Ukraine with
his swasa on his arm it wouldn't play
here that's why we don't see it isn't it
absolutely which is precisely why um all
this is
being stopped people don't talk about it
they talk about completely other things
about the fact that it was a democratic
Revolution and all the rest and they
don't talk about the foreign Ministry
the for the Estonian foreign minister
and Caroline Ashton's conversation
either because it goes completely
against the narrative but to come back
to your your point it's absolutely clear
that the present regime in Kiev I don't
call it a government I call it a regime
it's self-appointed is not acceptable to
the Russians they made that absolutely
clear up to now what the West has to do
to to sort that problem out I don't know
is going to try I think well we're going
to throw money no well they're meeting
they're meeting now for us Summit on
Ukraine hug sums of money which have
miraculously appeared fromwhere which
weren't available for member states like
Greece indeed are suddenly apparently
available well apparently because in
fact when you unpeel it it's not clear
how much money actually is on the table
Mr kery went to Kiev and all he could
offer was $1 billion in loan guarantees
that's not money that's actually loan
guarant anes the simple fact is the
Ukraine is bankrupt it's running out of
money fast its gas reserves are
extremely low and on the 1 of April the
gas discount which the Russians granted
is going away this is a major problem
for the Europeans and if they're going
to get the you you Russians and the
ukrainians talking to each other which
is what the Europeans are saying then
they're going to have to do something
about who is running this the shop in
Kiev Alexander murus thanks uh uh I'm
not sure if we'll do Ukraine next week
as we have the last three but we might
have to coming up after the break former
British labor cabinet minister Brian
Wilson on why the breakup of this
particular small country would be a bad
idea don't miss it
welcome back to Sputnik my next guest
has been a personal friend of mine for
fully 40 years notwithstanding some
pretty serious political disagreements
along the way but one thing we do agree
about is that breaking up a small
English-speaking country come September
would not be in the interests of working
people on either side of any new border
between Scotland and England he and I
are about to set off on tour it's like
the Rolling Stones Getting Back Together
complete with tour bus but no sex no
drugs no rock and roll asking the
Scottish people to just say no to
separatism but before we do gatri asked
the people of London what they thought
of the idea of Scotland leaving them
when it comes to Scottish
independence I'm I'm not I don't I
wouldn't mind at all I mean you know I
think it's really up to them in terms of
their decisions and their aspirations in
relation to decisions that they're going
to be making no I don't think Scotland
should need the UK part they're part of
the United Kingdom I prefer to stay
with the UK I think they' be foolish to
go no no I don't reckon they should
leave no they're they're very important
to the English culture as well you know
can you imagine why so many Scots a thir
it's quite a lot who that they would
wish to leave the UK national pride
that's purely simple national pride you
any country wants national pride that's
one point England doesn't have because
of political correctness of national
pride which class is incorrec be
patriotic want to be independent they're
crazy they'll go
broke mother's Pride you can eat
national pride I don't think you can eat
we'll come back to that point none of
these people on the Streets of London
have got a vote in this do you think
first of all that the basis of this
referendum uh is correct is fair I mean
why should the 800,000 Scottish people
who have to work in London and the rest
of England not have a say in this I
think that's the the least of the
problems I I you have to draw a line
somewhere of of who can vote and people
register to vote in Scotland if if you
accept the premise that Scotland has a
right to decide as opposed to the the UK
as a whole making a decision and this
then I think you have to take the the
people who who are are registered to
vote in Scotland as the the the the as
the elector the electorate now the polls
are uh are a little bit volatile they
show uh a lead for the no side what's
your reading of the trajectory of
Scottish public public opinion if if you
look at this historically for the last
30 40 years you know it hasn't changed
very much there's always 30 odd perc I
mean I think the the first question to
ask is this the question people in
Scotland are most interested in being
asked because there's because Scottish
politics for so long now has been
focusing this constitutional issue and
the question are being asked it's almost
inevitable you're going to get a you
know that that kind of proportion of
people who when there's only are two
answers available but you're going to
get that kind of of division on the on
the on the Constitution how much of that
30% are actually preoccupied with it
however how many people would say it's a
number one priority to you know to to
put a border across the our small island
that's another question but if you ask
for a yes no on that question then I I
think you know it doesn't surprise me it
comes out at 30 odd perent saying yes
and it is volatile that the the the um I
suppose the the dream scenario for the
national is is that come September it
would look likely there was going to be
another Tory government and then they
would present it not as a as a a
Scotland versus the union thing but
Scotland versus the the the Tories and
they you know there is a market for that
to appeal to as well and that is why
it's very important to to make not just
a a a a constitutional argument or this
or an economic argument but actually to
make a solidarity argument about the the
shared interests of people in in in
Scotland and England is it all about as
that lad outside the shop said just just
national pride it's something to do with
national it's something to do with
identity but you know I think that the
danger is when it's when identity
becomes what motivates your politics and
you've lost sight of much much bigger
issues and H particularly the dangers of
losing shared interests which people in
Glasgow or Edinburgh have exactly the
same interest as people in in London or
in Liverpool or or Newcastle and
probably with a breakdown of the
organized labor movement with you know
that there's l of that kind of feeling
of solidarity and therefore if unless
you keep making the arguments and the
danger is something else FS the fills
the vacuum and for so long now this has
been going on as we both know for
decades but if you've got somebody who's
constantly telling people who are poor
or disadvantaged in in Scotland but the
reason for this is not the economic
system and the the balance of forces
with within the UK as a whole but it is
a sort of Scotland England divide it's a
Westminster Scotland divide if you if
everything is painted in these terms
then of course there's going to be some
kind of market for that so you always
have to have someone telling the counter
story that actually the you know people
with more poverty within the you know
within a 20 mile radius of of
Westminster and there is probably in the
whole of of of Scotland it's it's a
shared issu it's a shared problems and
if we all you would end up with and this
is not one right-wing government you'd
end up with two rightwing government Ian
Scotland won't be free of the tourist
will it if it becomes independent it
will be forever under the Tories because
the Tories will rule at Westminster and
they'll control the currency that the
independence party wants to continue to
use I've always thought it was a
dangerous line of arguments and there's
no Tories in Scotland I've lived in
Scotland all my life of course there's
Tories in Scotland but what has happened
is as the Tories became a more
discredited brand in Scotland then more
and more of that vote found Refuge
somewhere else and nationalism up to a
certain point is a very convenient place
to find it I mean the heartlands of
nationalism are not you know the the
work among the working classes of of
Glasgow or lanar Shire the heartlands
are Angus and Perth and the northeast of
B Buck the traditional Tory strongholds
in Scotland and that's where the Tory
vote has crumbled and that's where the
strength came from and the trick of
nationalism wherever it arises is is
essentially to be a chameleon it will be
whatever people want it to be in any
given place at any given time so if you
think you've got the kind of the you
know the sort of reactionary heartlands
sewing up then you turn the rhetoric
towards the the the other parts of
Scotland who want to hear more different
messages Social Democratic messages we
can be more leftwing we can be more
Progressive in Scotland than we can in
the in in in in the UK as a whole and
but then you go back you know which is
what we must do more of just now is say
well don't you there's no need to look
in the crystal ball read the book and
see what they're doing in Scotland they
have the power to make a social change
they have the power to be
redistributionist in in Scotland at
present under Devolution and none of
that is is happening when we we have a
center right government in Scotland a
Tory government in in Westminster and we
would carry on there there's absolutely
no a priori reason to think that that an
independent Scotland would be any more
Progressive than a devolved Scotland is
at the present time Brian I I think I
agree with you that identity plays a big
role in in the current debate in
Scotland and that uh the whole obsession
about the Scottish identity the whole
Braveheart um um play uh misses the
actual points and that you're right that
um there might be even worse of without
out of the UK yeah do you think that
it's a small group however that is
leading this identity campaign or is it
widespread throughout Scotland well I
think you know identity is strong in
Scotland I'm I feel Scottish of course I
I feel I feel Scottish but I don't I
don't it doesn't dominate my thinking I
mean live in the outer herdes of of of
Scotland you know I feel a much greater
affinity for that part of Scotland than
I do for Scotland per se you know I
think most of us carry multiple
identities and we don't find any
difficulty in having multiple identities
the permiss thing about nationalism is
it makes you choose between identities
so the vast majority of people in
Scotland are very comfortable being
Scottish being British being dundonian
being European being heidan being
whatever whatever you may be but the
thing that nationalism does is try to
turn you against one of these identities
and to make you choose where there's no
need for a choice to be made because
until someone presents that to you then
you can quite happily accommodate not
just je dichotomy the braveart Mel
Gibson was an Australian uh making a
Hollywood movie about a war between two
french- speaking Kings with Scottish
people fighting on both sides I said
recently I mean it you may not agree
you're actually rather more of a Scot
figure than me I'm not remotely
interested in
1314 I'm only interested in
2014 and uh and uh Beyond um but it's
it's not gatri a small group uh as
someone active on social media I can
tell you there are thousands and
thousands of these people buzzing around
like Hornets ready to sting anyone with
they running this campaign yeah yeah but
the the accusation is that you're not
Scottish if you are against Independence
that you're a Tory if you are against uh
Independence this going to Poison the
Well for a long time to come Brian yeah
I I think the well is poisoned you know
I think that the saddest thing I mean
I'm looking back over a lifetime almost
that you know that you're the sadness is
that the radicalism of Scottish politics
has been dissipated really on this
pointless debate you know that now all a
you know if you look what's going on in
in in Scotland just now that there's
been regression on the you know the
attack on child poverty which did
actually you know a lot of progress was
made in the in the labor years you see
local Authority budgets been cut in the
services and poor that poor people
depend on but all of that is
subordinated now to this this Con
constitutional debate and the entirely
false narrative that all you have to do
is to change the Constitution and all of
these social issues somehow disappear
whereas as I say there's not a shred of
evidence of that from what is actually
happening in in Scotland at the at at at
the present time but ultimately you know
I it probably is the economy that will
will will de decide it and the more
people realize it I mean we we have 300
years of to become an integrated economy
there are many success stories in
Scotland but to a large extent their
success stories because we are part of
the bigger U UK economy you know we we
have tens of thousands of jobs and
financial services in Edinburgh but we
only have that because we're part of the
same entity as the as
as as the one we're s we're sitting in
just now so the more the the economic
reality strikes home and yeah I do think
that the that that Independence will be
defeated but I also agree with you the
well will be further poisoned because
we're having the wrong debate and it the
wrong issues and it is going to leave
inevitably a sense of well I don't know
disappointment would be the the least of
it I think uh people can catch us on
tour just say no you can uh follow me on
social media or go to just say no uh
website for details of that Brian Wilson
thanks very much for joining me thank
you now it's your turn to tell us what
you think in the social media review and
Roundup Guy what's rattling well you
recall John kery saying that in the 21st
century you just don't behave in a 19th
century fashion by invading another
country on completely uh trumped up
pretext CLA Rob responds to that oh Mr
Kerry you should really think before you
open your mouth po calling kettle black
the point that she's making is the point
of the week isn't it that John kery and
for that matter William Hagen David
Cameron seemed to
have no trace of irony in their voices
as they thundered about a bloodless
intervention permitted by treaty between
Russia and the Ukraine
and backed unanimously by the Crimean
Parliament and likely backed in a mass
referendum they keep talking about the
need for democracy in Ukraine when it's
the democratic government that was
overthrown by Street power and violence
on Scotland Helen says that well let
them go I say see how long it takes them
to come crawling back they will need us
before we need them no that that's
entirely the wrong attitude uh and
that's likely to assist the separatist
uh forces we need each other we're
better off with each other well that's
it for this week then which alas means
that's the end of the show you can keep
in touch with us on Twitter at _ Sputnik
and on Facebook you can find us on
Sputnik on Russia Today that's goodbye
for me gri and from me George Galloway
it's been marvelous
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